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Irishman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irishman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2008 at 4:23pm
Good point, Holly. I think too many people have a tendency to equate faith and religion, and lump both of those in with 'ignorance'.
As for what Spicy was trying to say...the floor is hers.
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Thor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2008 at 4:36pm
Deepak Chopra says:
"God created Religion and then the Devil came and organized it."
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Asnotseenontv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2008 at 9:12pm
As far as I'm concerned, true Christianity  is not a religion, it's faith. If rituals are clinged to, then it's a religion and not a true faith.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Irishman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2008 at 9:19pm
'Faith' is often misused to mean 'religion'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skippy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2008 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by HollyRock HollyRock wrote:

 
I may be wrong, but it doesn't seem very Christian to be calling someone else "dickheaded"; and...she's a female....
 
 
 
Not believing in God is not very Christian either!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spicy_Meatball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2008 at 1:26am
Originally posted by Asnotseenontv Asnotseenontv wrote:

^ it is kinda dickheaded to go around saying these things when you know there are people here who are Christians like I. That said, I don't take all the bible literally like a few do.
 
You have to have at least 500 posts before you can call me or my posts "dickheaded".   Tongue  That said....this is a discussion group.   My thoughts are that if you're going to be offended at some topics or are not capable of exploring the ideas of others then perhaps refrain from the topics altogther.    I have no problem whatsoever being the skunk at the garden party when it comes to expressing my ideas on things.   I am very interested in what makes believers (religious, faithful...whatever you call it) tick.  Funny thing is,  instead of them coming back and saying "This is how I know the story of Adam and Eve is absolutely true...." and offering examples to make a non-believer like me perhaps understand more (such as two people having two sons and from this family all the peoples of the entire world sprouted?)  .....they who don't like to challenge anything about religion tend to call the other person a "dickhead".  See what I mean?? Wink  Either that or they'll say "I was taught that and that's why it's true goddamit!!!"  LOL      Trust me ...I am no virgin to the occasional religious discussion on a message board!  I have even moderated them.  Anyway... I am looking forward to Bill Mahr's new movie on the topic just as I always looked forward to religious comments coming from the great George Carlin.  George will alway be one of many of my own personal "gods" as well as anyone else who stands up against what's considered "normal".   Who can answer me this:  What religion is God?? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Asnotseenontv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2008 at 1:42am
Most of the old testament is symbolic. Simple as that. So if you want instantly gratifying answers...you're outta luck. I apologize for calling you names, however I just feel pressured because we religious/faithful people are being attacked from all angles, whether it be TV dramas, books, movies or otherwise and I feel the need to strike back. I can't just stand back and let you guys spit on us constantly. We have to defend ourselves too. I'm sorry OK. Just stop stressing me out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hootman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2008 at 2:13am
Asnotseenontv,

You joined last Sunday and have 28 posts.  This may not be the forum for you if you're already stressed out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spicy_Meatball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2008 at 2:18am
Originally posted by Asnotseenontv Asnotseenontv wrote:

Most of the old testament is symbolic. Simple as that. So if you want instantly gratifying answers...you're outta luck. I apologize for calling you names, however I just feel pressured because we religious/faithful people are being attacked from all angles, whether it be TV dramas, books, movies or otherwise and I feel the need to strike back. I can't just stand back and let you guys spit on us constantly. We have to defend ourselves too. I'm sorry OK. Just stop stressing me out.
 
Well no...sorry.  I am not going to stop posting when I see something interesing on which to comment  because it "stresses you out".   If you're really faithful then you should feel no pressure to "strike back" at people who challenge the writings of the bible or even those who challenge religion in the media.   And who are "you guys"?  People who don't stand back and accept everything you believe??   Doesn't really work that way.  I am always interested to hear why people believe what they do.  I don't have respect for people who try to stifle my inquisitive nature when their own arguments, or lack thereof, run dry.   But no worries on the "dickheaded" thing.  I've been called worse.  But keep in mind I don't think that was something Jesus would do.  Cool 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Asnotseenontv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2008 at 2:22am
Those are hard questions your asking there girl. Not ones most people can answer, even "wise" people like Richard Dawkins and Chris Hitchens. That's like asking an atheist how they know God doesn't exist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2008 at 2:32am
I'd actually be more stressed out by some forum that's only about inconsequential things, or one that only consists of like-minded people.  CIH is a good release valve for me.  Yeah, the talk about commercials attracted me to this forum originally, but had the talk never gone off into other things and/or more serious matters, I'm not sure I would've stayed. 
 
I think asnotseenontv is cut out for this forum, as are all the members who are ready, willing, and able to discuss things.
 
One thing that makes CIH so good, is that it's neutral politically, religiously, socially etc.  Its very crux attracts people of diverse thought.  I mean, most people have a thing or two to say about commercials they hate.  It's not geared towards anyone in particular, and as such, it attracts all sorts of thought.  
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Asnotseenontv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2008 at 2:37am
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

I'd actually be more stressed out by some forum that's only about inconsequential things, or one that only consists of like-minded people.  CIH is a good release valve for me.  Yeah, the talk about commercials attracted me to this forum originally, but had the talk never gone off into other things and/or more serious matters, I'm not sure I would've stayed. 
 
I think asnotseenontv is cut out for this forum, as are all the members who are ready, willing, and able to discuss things.
 
One thing that makes CIH so good, is that it's neutral politically, religiously, socially etc.  Its very crux attracts people of diverse thought.  I mean, most people have a thing or two to say about commercials they hate.  It's not geared towards anyone in particular, and as such, it attracts all sorts of thought.  
 
 
 
 
There are all kinds of people with different beliefs and I think Thor(cool username BTWClap) is exactly right.
 
Now Spicy, to give you an honest answer as why I believe Jesus was born of a virgin: it's not too farfetched. Virgin births are all over nature, even in some mammals. So why couldn't it happen for a human?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spicy_Meatball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2008 at 2:39am
Originally posted by Asnotseenontv Asnotseenontv wrote:

Those are hard questions your asking there girl. Not ones most people can answer, even "wise" people like Richard Dawkins and Chris Hitchens.
 
Read their books, have you?  Both were fabulous  I like to believe that what they are saying is really more "wise" than what comes out of an ancient book that has been misinterpreted and thoroughly abused for thousands of years.  The ministers and preachers and other religious folks who take the words of the bible literally in an attempt to spread hatred and violence just aren't my cuppa tea. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Asnotseenontv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2008 at 2:44am
Now Spicy, to give you an honest answer as why I believe Jesus was born of a virgin: it's not too farfetched. Virgin births are all over nature, even in some mammals. So why couldn't it happen for a human?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2008 at 2:47am
Thanks, asnotseenontv.
 
I learn a lot of things as I go along.  So, I just looked up Virgin Birth of Jesus in Wikipedia.  The virgin birth of Jesus is not seen by religious people as the same thing as virgin birth in other species.  In other species, it's called parthogenesis, whereas Christians view the virgin birth of Jesus as a miracle.
 
In Christian and Islamic belief, the virgin birth of Jesus was not a case of parthogenesis (the scientific name for virgin birth), such as occurs naturally in some species, and has been artificially induced even in mammals, but generally produces only female offspring.[43] Like the story of Jesus' resurrection, the conception of Jesus is seen as a strictly miraculous occurrence, not explainable as a natural process, no matter how exceptional, or as a scientific achievement.[44][45] In fact, scientists believe that not even the most advanced techniques could induce parthenogenesis in humans, especially for producing male offspring.[46][47][48][49]
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spicy_Meatball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2008 at 2:56am
Originally posted by Asnotseenontv Asnotseenontv wrote:

 
Now Spicy, to give you an honest answer as why I believe Jesus was born of a virgin: it's not too farfetched. Virgin births are all over nature, even in some mammals. So why couldn't it happen for a human?
 
So what you're saying is that Jesus was possibly not born of virgin and man-ghost but could have been a result of parthenogenesis?  Hmmm!   I'd tend to believe in the latter rather than the former but since this story of woman impregnated by "ghostly creature" has been repeated in many other faiths I maintain my position on it (see my other post back yonder).    I am not sure how many cases of human parthenogenesis have occured in the last 2008 years.  My guess is...ZERO. Wink   But I assure you, it's a great alibi!  Many religious scholars believe that "Mary" was actually raped by a Roman soldier and was impregnated in that way and that her baby was most likely born in April and not December.  Shepherds didn't watch their flocks at night outdoors  in December.  It would have been too cold.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skippy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2008 at 3:28am
Originally posted by Spicy_Meatball Spicy_Meatball wrote:

Read their books, have you?  Both were fabulous   
 
 
There you go again bringing up those so-called ficticious storybooks that are used to brainwash people...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skippy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2008 at 3:33am
Originally posted by Spicy_Meatball Spicy_Meatball wrote:

  I don't have respect for people who try to stifle my inquisitive nature when their own arguments, or lack thereof, run dry.   
 
 
But when an atheist does it, then it is called "enlightenment"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skippy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2008 at 3:37am
Originally posted by Asnotseenontv Asnotseenontv wrote:

Now Spicy, to give you an honest answer as why I believe Jesus was born of a virgin: it's not too farfetched. Virgin births are all over nature, even in some mammals. So why couldn't it happen for a human?
 
 
You keep standing up for what you believe in. Religious atheists (oxymoron) are set in their ways to stifle any type of free religious expression. They are really insecure about their lack of belief, because otherwise they really wouldn't care what you think. They are really doing exactly what they despise others for doing-"Shoving their agenda down your throat"
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skippy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2008 at 3:39am

I hereby nominate the person who posts the last post in this thread (after this post):

 

The official CIH Moron of the Month for October.

It's been awhile since we picked a Moron of the MonthShocked Who's up for it?
 
(If you want to pray for me to get some intellect, you won't have to. My IQ is just a few points shy of genius.)
 
Our moron is: 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spicy_Meatball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2008 at 4:17am
Originally posted by Skibibbles Skibibbles wrote:

I hereby nominate the person who posts the last post in this thread (after this post):

 

The official CIH Moron of the Month for October.

It's been awhile since we picked a Moron of the MonthShocked Who's up for it?
 
If I prayed...which I don't....I'd seriously pray you'd get some intellect.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ad nauseous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2008 at 4:52am
....
One good thing about TV-you could always turn it off
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DollMaker66 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2008 at 8:40am
 
Don't feel bad.  I find Joy Behar to be a foul, stupid pig.  And talk about visually repulsive...
 
 [/QUOTE]
 
Shocked  Bit harsh there, Thor?  Do you watch "The View" daily? 
[/QUOTE]
 
No, and no.
 
Joy Behar is actually even less appealing than Rita Cosby.  I picture them both hanging out at the Embassy Suites happy hour, getting drunk on wine, laughing loudly, and hooking up with any 60 y/o man with a wedding ring and a Rolex watch.
 
 
 
 
[/QUOTE]
 
Hmmm.  Well Joy doesn't pretend to be a journalist or court reporter.  She's just a stand-up comic and writer who makes for an interesting host or co-host.  Joy's been married and divorced and has been a relationship with a nice man for over 20 years.  If you don't watch "The View" or really know who Joy Behar is, I just don't get the "foul, stupid pig" comment.   She isn't any of those things.  
[/QUOTE]
 
 
I agree, Spicy.  I like Joy, Whoopi too.  Sherri is usually a bit bubble-headed, but is at least good for a chuckle or two occasionally.   That Elizabeth though...she's the most insulated out-of-touch-with-reality individual I've ever seen.   I just LOVE when Whoopi and Joy put her in her place...even Barbara has to almost practically scold her sometimes.  I don't know why she keeps coming back...though I do enjoy yelling "YOU STUPID IDIOT" almost everytime she says something out of left field that shows she doesn't know what the f*** she's talking about.  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeroboam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2008 at 4:43pm
The bible exists for one purpose.
To share God's desire to restore a relationship with his creation.
In the Old Testament it the preparation for God's promise of a Messiah
and the New Testament is the prophecy of that Messiah's arrival being fulfilled and then a mantle given to his believers.
It does NOTHING to defend itself, tout itself as the ONE true book and it offers to "proof" in its words because as it was being written (by scholars and men of pious and often fearful faith) there was an assumption that all who read this word or were shared the word were believers.

So the bible never gives a clear and concise argument for itself.

It didn't need to.
I am sure the men who wrote the words and poems and stories they all knew from passed down stories and sessions were very precise in sharing what they knew in their hearts to be "true".
There are occasions where wicked men have tried to use scripture to alter things and fit it to their desires. King James had no intention to "liberate" the people by sharing a translation of the bible. He did so to control them. He also instructed them to alter words to fit his doctrines.
Something which failed and in turn the King James errors are non substantial to the text's original intent and has little effect on the story of Christ (the only real purpose of scripture in Christianity)
Given some doctrines in the last 600 or so years have risen from some of KJ's errors (Jesus name only doctrine, the rapture)

But in all in spite of Jame's ulterior motives, truth was made known to the Christian commoner.

Christians as we see them today, as in the ones who get the press and try and toot their loud weird horns, those are a new breed.
They are the ones to profess to be bringing the nation back under God's rightful purpose and such.
Sadly if any of these "christians" were to go back in time and meet their so called "forefathers" they would be forced to rethink what it means.
When you have Franklin, a deist mason who dabbled in witchcraft.
Or Lincoln a known spiritist who loved a good seance
one has to think again about how pious these men are.
It was the late 1800s that gave us a lot of the doctrines we know and love to hate today.
And the turn of the century, dozens of these "awakening" moments were harnessed and turned in to the modern charismatic doctrines.

It is a complex evolution and one can't blindly label all Christians as whack jobs, or a belief in Christianity as a one-size-fits-all straight jacket.

No faith or world view can be passed off that easily.
Even among known cults, there are moderate levels and variations of devotion and interpretation.





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