Please help the CIH Forums by disabling AdBlock Plus on this page.
Forum Home Forum Home :: Commercials You Hate! :: Television / Streaming Ads
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Gardasil "Parent Shaming" Ads
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Gardasil "Parent Shaming" Ads

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
Jimbo View Drop Down
Honor Roll
Honor Roll
Avatar

Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 56960
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

It's a corporation and, as such, does not have feelings, negative or positive.  There may be a PR person whose job it is to make it sound like the corporation has this heartfelt concern for people's health but it's still a non-human entity.

But if you're talking about the people who run the corporation---well, people are there to do their jobs.  The CEOs and CFOs and COOs care insofar as the drugs they come up with are successful.  And really, isn't that more "caring" than some platitudes that come out of a PR person's mouth?


I think we're still not quite on the same page here.

You say a corporation ("it") is a non-human entity. I suppose that depends upon how you look at a corporation. If you see a corporation as nothing more than a collection of contractual legalities and words on documents filed with the proper governing authorities, then I suppose that is true. But if you see a corporation as a group of people working together, providing some product or service to people or other businesses, then it is very much a human entity.

I see it the second way. And when a corporation is involved in something like producing medication, I think it's downright dangerous for the people who run it to not care about the people who use their products. If they don't care about the people who are using their medications, what are the chances that they might try to cut corners, fudge test results, withhold data that might make it harder to get their products approved by the FDA, etc.

I think that caring about people is of paramount importance in this industry above all others.

...the ads take aim and lay their claim to the heart and the soul of the spender
Jackson Browne - The Pretender

C'mon, man!
Joe Biden - 46th President of the United States
Back to Top
Sponsored Links



Back to Top
Thor View Drop Down
Revolutionary
Revolutionary
Avatar

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Location: Rockaway, NJ
Status: Offline
Points: 63906
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by Jimbo Jimbo wrote:



Thor's comment seemed to suggest that the people who run these companies should take the attitude of "Fück these people and their problems. We couldn't give a sh*t about anything other than getting our products on the market and making a ton of money".



It's a corporation and, as such, does not have feelings, negative or positive.  There may be a PR person whose job it is to make it sound like the corporation has this heartfelt concern for people's health but it's still a non-human entity.
 
But if you're talking about the people who run the corporation---well, people are there to do their jobs.  The CEOs and CFOs and COOs care insofar as the drugs they come up with are successful.  And really, isn't that more "caring" than some platitudes that come out of a PR person's mouth?
 
 
Back to Top
Jimbo View Drop Down
Honor Roll
Honor Roll
Avatar

Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 56960
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by the raytownian the raytownian wrote:

Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Expecting Merck to care about our health is like expecting the supermarket to care that we're out of bread and milk.  They're businesses.  They're not there to care; they're there to fulfill a need and to make profits.


See, that's what I'm on about. I don't expect Merck to care, I just feel insulted that they pretend to care. I'd really prefer it if all drug/pharma companies pushed facts and figures to make their points, and not a bunch of manipulative soap opera BS.


I think my initial response to Thor's comment was misconstrued by some.

I was not bashing the pharma companies, nor did I mean to imply that they DON'T care. They are after all, ran by humans, most of whom must have some level of human compassion. I also was not suggesting that they take a personal interest in every case and every patient who is prescribed their product and get weepy when things don't work out well for some of them.

The only point I was trying to make, was that if they are going to be involved in the production of these products that are supposed to cure and heal sick and injured people, they really ought to have a CARING ATTITUDE about people in general and for the users of their product as a group.

Thor's comment seemed to suggest that the people who run these companies should take the attitude of "Fück these people and their problems. We couldn't give a sh*t about anything other than getting our products on the market and making a ton of money".

That might be acceptable in some industries where people's lives and health are not part of the bottom line, but if you're in the business of producing products meant to improve the lives and health of the people who use them, you ought to at least care about them as a whole.

Or at least *I* think so.


...the ads take aim and lay their claim to the heart and the soul of the spender
Jackson Browne - The Pretender

C'mon, man!
Joe Biden - 46th President of the United States
Back to Top
aka ron View Drop Down
Honor Roll
Honor Roll
Avatar

Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Location: WI
Status: Offline
Points: 33539
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aka ron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 6:26pm
Back to Top
the raytownian View Drop Down
Junior Executive
Junior Executive
Avatar

Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Location: huntsville
Status: Offline
Points: 256
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the raytownian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Expecting Merck to care about our health is like expecting the supermarket to care that we're out of bread and milk.  They're businesses.  They're not there to care; they're there to fulfill a need and to make profits.
 


See, that's what I'm on about. I don't expect Merck to care, I just feel insulted that they pretend to care. I'd really prefer it if all drug/pharma companies pushed facts and figures to make their points, and not a bunch of manipulative soap opera BS.
Back to Top
Papa Lazarou View Drop Down
Ad Exec
Ad Exec
Avatar
Formerly Codtaro

Joined: 18 Nov 2011
Location: New Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 7710
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Papa Lazarou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 4:33am
I say they do as much as any other company cares about consumers. But if there IS a discrepancy in their "car" I'd say it's far more likely due to the things I mentioned. Putting out a product where it still requires an 11-14 year monitoring process is far more due to the financial strain the repressive ethical standards put those companies under. Even so, it's VERY easy to prove that no company just randomly discovers a compound and starts selling it two weeks later without researching it enough. It's a hugely laborious process to get it to "release-ready" stages/

As for the point some other posters mentioned about "May cause death", this doesn't always actually have any truth to it. It's yet again one of the restrictions. During the testing phases, there's a certain percentage of animal subjects that can die during the testing process before the compound gets labelled as "may cause death". This doesn't relate solely to the tested product, but any death where the product itself cannot be certainly said to not have played a part (which is hard to do). Similarly, anything human subjects experience during the testing processes can be listed as a side-effect, if it is NOT able to be totally discredited as having anything to do with the product.
Banana!
BANANA!!
BANANA!!!
BANANA!!
Banana!
Back to Top
Jimbo View Drop Down
Honor Roll
Honor Roll
Avatar

Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 56960
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 3:47am
Originally posted by Papa Lazarou Papa Lazarou wrote:

^Then take umbridge with our current standards of ethics and testing laws and regulations and restrictions - not the companies.


I'm not taking umbrage with anyone, PL. I just disagree with the notion that it's not the business of drug companies to care about the people who use their products.

...the ads take aim and lay their claim to the heart and the soul of the spender
Jackson Browne - The Pretender

C'mon, man!
Joe Biden - 46th President of the United States
Back to Top
Anduril View Drop Down
Junior Executive
Junior Executive


Joined: 23 Sep 2014
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2144
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anduril Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 3:20am
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

 
Merck "cares" to the extent that a corporate entity can "care"...
 
As far as profits---hell, I want them to make big profits.  The more profits, the more that goes into research and development. 
 
I've read that it costs $1 billion to develop a new drug.
 
 
 
Yes, and $998 Million of that is for TV advertising!!
Hey, it's expensive getting naked OJ's to sing in the shower.  Confused
 
 
Back to Top
Donathan View Drop Down
Junior Executive
Junior Executive


Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 4073
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 3:15am
Good point, Ron about death not supposing to be a side effect. I love how monotone most commercial announcers sound when they say,"Using Lanitra for Rheumatoid Arthritis may cause death." Um, no thank you! I'd rather have Rheumatoid Arthritis than die!
My name is Donathan, pronounced the same way you pronounce Jonathan, except with a D.😀 Hitting on a Lesbian who speaks to you and about you like trash means you're REALLY desperate! 😀




Back to Top
aka ron View Drop Down
Honor Roll
Honor Roll
Avatar

Joined: 11 Apr 2009
Location: WI
Status: Offline
Points: 33539
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aka ron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 2:34am
Just like Donna...the side effects are often worse than the initial illness. The Rx companies only care about profits. Death, should never be a side effect.
Just look at all of the class action lawsuits.
Back to Top
Donathan View Drop Down
Junior Executive
Junior Executive


Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 4073
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donathan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 2:28am
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:


Expecting Merck to care about our health is like expecting the supermarket to care that we're out of bread and milk.  They're businesses.  They're not there to care; they're there to fulfill a need and to make profits.
 
 



Thor, what you just said here about businesses caring about profits and not people reminds me of a complaint I read on a TitleMax review website. Something like, "My husband had a job when we took out a loan from TitleMax and I am on disability. My husband was unexpectedly soon laid off from his job and we still had the TitleMax loan looming over our heads. I called TitleMax to explain that my husband didn't have a job anymore and I was on disability and it would be virtually impossible to pay back the loan anytime soon. TitleMax coldly told us we still had to pay back the loan on the agreed date. TitleMax had no compassion or sympathy for us! All they cared about was their money! We never should have taken out a loan from them!
My name is Donathan, pronounced the same way you pronounce Jonathan, except with a D.😀 Hitting on a Lesbian who speaks to you and about you like trash means you're REALLY desperate! 😀




Back to Top
Papa Lazarou View Drop Down
Ad Exec
Ad Exec
Avatar
Formerly Codtaro

Joined: 18 Nov 2011
Location: New Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 7710
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Papa Lazarou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 1:15am
^Then take umbridge with our current standards of ethics and testing laws and regulations and restrictions - not the companies.

The simple and sad fact is that within the current laws, by the time something even gets approved for human testing, so much testing has had to qualify it for THAT so that they're already at the breaking point when they do test on humans. and even when they CAN test on humans, the conditions, controls, etc. are so much more varied and uncontrollable because - coming back to ethics - there's very little way to solidly restrict variables of error or outside contamination of results.

Also, while we have other animal species whose life cycles and internal systems closely mimic our own to where they become better options for seeing long-term usage potentials, the end-fact is that this simply isn't a perfect replacement for seeing what living 80-90-100+ years total would be like - whether the product is taken for a little while or long-term. Even if synthetic or cloned humans became a viable option - how long would it be before uptight ethical standards affected THEIR use as well. Hell, ridiculous ethical standards pretty much single-handedly halted an amazingly successful study on synthetic wombs simply because a full clearance hadn't been achieved before using human subjects.


Also, while there's some legitimate cases of medicines causing serious problems that required a reworking of the medication itself - an even huger proportion of medical lawsuit/damage reports were found to result from abuse, misuse, or cases of extremely rare cross-affect - such as a case where one medication had adverse reactions when the user's diet contained onions.
 
Banana!
BANANA!!
BANANA!!!
BANANA!!
Banana!
Back to Top
Jimbo View Drop Down
Honor Roll
Honor Roll
Avatar

Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 56960
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 12:48am
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Sorry, but it all comes down to the money.


Of course it does.

Never said it didn't.

But it's still not right. As evidenced by the number of half-assed junk they're putting out there that's making people sicker than they were to begin with, all because they don't feel as a corporate entity, it's incumbent upon them to care about the people who use their products.

Like I said, with that attitude, they should get out of the business and do something else.

...the ads take aim and lay their claim to the heart and the soul of the spender
Jackson Browne - The Pretender

C'mon, man!
Joe Biden - 46th President of the United States
Back to Top
Thor View Drop Down
Revolutionary
Revolutionary
Avatar

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Location: Rockaway, NJ
Status: Offline
Points: 63906
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 12:26am
Originally posted by Jimbo Jimbo wrote:

Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Merck "cares" to the extent that a corporate entity can "care".  Hell, it makes medicines to, presumably, make us healthier.  That's how it cares.  It doesn't have feelings.

And to expect that medication be free of side effects---well, we'd be waiting forever for that medication to be made available.  Hell, even aspirin still has side effects.

As far as profits---hell, I want them to make big profits.  The more profits, the more that goes into research and development.  I've read that it costs $1 billion to develop a new drug.


That's all beside the point.

Corporations are run by people, not robots or computers.

The people at the top who sit on the board are the corporation and they're also human beings. As such, they are expected to care about the people who put their products inside their bodies, usually at a huge financial expense.

I never suggested that they shouldn't make a profit, but that shouldn't be their number one concern, and they need to do it in such a way that they CARE enough about the people who use what they develop so that they don't start getting CAREless and sloppy, putting people's lives and health at risk.

This stone cold, unfeeling, straight line "logic" that conservatives love to employ never really holds up under the light of day.

 
 
Sorry, but it all comes down to the money.
 
 
Back to Top
Jimbo View Drop Down
Honor Roll
Honor Roll
Avatar

Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 56960
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 12:24am
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:




Maybe you two should get a room.

I wouldn't let an ass kissing from that guy go to my head if I were you.

He's obviously clueless.

Too....

...the ads take aim and lay their claim to the heart and the soul of the spender
Jackson Browne - The Pretender

C'mon, man!
Joe Biden - 46th President of the United States
Back to Top
Jimbo View Drop Down
Honor Roll
Honor Roll
Avatar

Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 56960
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 12:22am
Originally posted by TheNilvarg TheNilvarg wrote:

Thor wins this thread. So tired of uneducated people bashing the pharmaceuticals industry.


1) You don't know WTF you're talking about.

2) I wasn't bashing anyone.

3) I am more educated than you are, even though that likely isn't saying much.

4) If you send him a PM and ask him nicely, maybe Thor will send you a picture of himself. You can frame it and keep it on your night stand.

...the ads take aim and lay their claim to the heart and the soul of the spender
Jackson Browne - The Pretender

C'mon, man!
Joe Biden - 46th President of the United States
Back to Top
Jimbo View Drop Down
Honor Roll
Honor Roll
Avatar

Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 56960
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 12:19am
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Merck "cares" to the extent that a corporate entity can "care".  Hell, it makes medicines to, presumably, make us healthier.  That's how it cares.  It doesn't have feelings.

And to expect that medication be free of side effects---well, we'd be waiting forever for that medication to be made available.  Hell, even aspirin still has side effects.

As far as profits---hell, I want them to make big profits.  The more profits, the more that goes into research and development.  I've read that it costs $1 billion to develop a new drug.


That's all beside the point.

Corporations are run by people, not robots or computers.

The people at the top who sit on the board are the corporation and they're also human beings. As such, they are expected to care about the people who put their products inside their bodies, usually at a huge financial expense.

I never suggested that they shouldn't make a profit, but that shouldn't be their number one concern, and they need to do it in such a way that they CARE enough about the people who use what they develop so that they don't start getting CAREless and sloppy, putting people's lives and health at risk.

This stone cold, unfeeling, straight line "logic" that conservatives love to employ never really holds up under the light of day.






...the ads take aim and lay their claim to the heart and the soul of the spender
Jackson Browne - The Pretender

C'mon, man!
Joe Biden - 46th President of the United States
Back to Top
Thor View Drop Down
Revolutionary
Revolutionary
Avatar

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Location: Rockaway, NJ
Status: Offline
Points: 63906
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 12:16am
Back to Top
TheNilvarg View Drop Down
Junior Executive
Junior Executive


Joined: 06 Feb 2009
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 382
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TheNilvarg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2016 at 12:06am
Thor wins this thread. So tired of uneducated people bashing the pharmaceuticals industry.
Back to Top
Papa Lazarou View Drop Down
Ad Exec
Ad Exec
Avatar
Formerly Codtaro

Joined: 18 Nov 2011
Location: New Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 7710
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Papa Lazarou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2016 at 11:52pm
I can't speak on this one, but aren't most vaccines nothing but money sinks for these companies? They make little profit on most of them.
 
Banana!
BANANA!!
BANANA!!!
BANANA!!
Banana!
Back to Top
cheesenado View Drop Down
Commercial Hater
Commercial Hater
Avatar

Joined: 19 Dec 2014
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 48
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheesenado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2016 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

 
Merck "cares" to the extent that a corporate entity can "care".  Hell, it makes medicines to, presumably, make us healthier.  That's how it cares.  It doesn't have feelings.
 
And to expect that medication be free of side effects---well, we'd be waiting forever for that medication to be made available.  Hell, even aspirin still has side effects.
 
As far as profits---hell, I want them to make big profits.  The more profits, the more that goes into research and development.  I've read that it costs $1 billion to develop a new drug.
 
 

^Thumbs Up^ I don't think people realize how much it costs in money (and time) to develop a new drug that works. Those companies still have to buy equipment, pay employees, and fund future research and testing. 
Back to Top
Thor View Drop Down
Revolutionary
Revolutionary
Avatar

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Location: Rockaway, NJ
Status: Offline
Points: 63906
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2016 at 9:49pm
 
Merck "cares" to the extent that a corporate entity can "care".  Hell, it makes medicines to, presumably, make us healthier.  That's how it cares.  It doesn't have feelings.
 
And to expect that medication be free of side effects---well, we'd be waiting forever for that medication to be made available.  Hell, even aspirin still has side effects.
 
As far as profits---hell, I want them to make big profits.  The more profits, the more that goes into research and development.  I've read that it costs $1 billion to develop a new drug.
 
 
Back to Top
Jimbo View Drop Down
Honor Roll
Honor Roll
Avatar

Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Location: Florida
Status: Offline
Points: 56960
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2016 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Expecting Merck to care about our health is like expecting the supermarket to care that we're out of bread and milk.  They're businesses.  They're not there to care; they're there to fulfill a need and to make profits.


Cannot agree with that. If all they are interested in is profits and don't CARE about the people who use their products, then they should get out of the Health CARE business.

Note the word CARE in the title.

It's called the Health CARE industry, not the Health Profit Generating industry for a reason.

If all they're interested in is profits, they should become a Hedge Fund management company, or manufacture industrial solvents or something.

Not all corporations can or should be lumped together in the same basket with regards to what is expected out of them. The Health Care industry is, or should be, more than just a corporate profit generator. Health Care should be a calling, with different standards than other industries. If they are making medicines to cure diseases but don't care about the people who use them, why should we have any faith or confidence that they'll go to the greatest lengths possible to make sure those medicines are both effective and won't have harmful side effects? Why should we trust them to put our well being ahead of what you feel is their primary reason for being, making the maximum level profit possible?

/Rant.

...the ads take aim and lay their claim to the heart and the soul of the spender
Jackson Browne - The Pretender

C'mon, man!
Joe Biden - 46th President of the United States
Back to Top
Thor View Drop Down
Revolutionary
Revolutionary
Avatar

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Location: Rockaway, NJ
Status: Offline
Points: 63906
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2016 at 9:10am
Expecting Merck to care about our health is like expecting the supermarket to care that we're out of bread and milk.  They're businesses.  They're not there to care; they're there to fulfill a need and to make profits.
 
 
Back to Top
Redheaded Gigi View Drop Down
Commercial Hater
Commercial Hater


Joined: 16 Aug 2016
Location: MD
Status: Offline
Points: 26
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redheaded Gigi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2016 at 2:42am
Not everyone who is wary of this particular vaccine is a "retard", listens to Jenny McCarthy, and/or believes that their child won't engage in sexual activity.  In my own particular case, I have two children with Crohn's disease who receive Remicade infusions and given that we have no family history of Crohn's and there's very little understanding about what causes the disease or induces a flare, I'm wary of just about anything my children put into their bodies.  While they and their brother, who does not have Crohn's, are receiving the Gardasil, I don't need Merck to try to "guilt" me into doing anything.  There have been enough imperfect, potentially guilt-inducing choices to be made with Crohn's treatment to last me a lifetime.  Also, I don't think Merck gives a flying f**k if my kids or if anyone else's kids get HPV or HPV-related cancers; their concern is all about the company's profits. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.04
Copyright ©2001-2015 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.230 seconds.