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jeroboam View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeroboam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2010 at 8:21pm
No soldier/sailor/marine/airman truly enjoys what they do in war.
At least not the normal ones.
I admit there were some who worried me during the Gulf, but I thought a lot was all talk. Until a couple situations arose.

Even then war hurts the mind, justifiable or not. It does something to people and robs them of something inside once they've taken part.
What replaces it is something sick and sad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaWolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2010 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by jeroboam jeroboam wrote:

No soldier/sailor/marine/airman truly enjoys what they do in war...
I consider that 'proper human nature'.
My Father WILL NOT discuss his *many* different tours (from WWII to IRAQ).
MY Son WILL NOT discuss AfgyLand.
My Daughter WILL NOT discuss the 'Border Drug War'.
MissyDWolf considers MANY subjects 'TABOO'.
I just don't see the need, nor benefit to any living human, to discuss what I experienced.
I firmly believe - and I have to - what happened was 'correct and rightous'; we can 'steer' others.
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"What we do for ourselves dies with us, What we do for others is and remains immortal." - Albert Pike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2010 at 11:55pm
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Originally posted by jeroboam jeroboam wrote:

The crew on the Enola Gay could see people working in their gardens below.
 
Whether or not the bombings were justifiable, I'd hate to have been the pilots/crew who dropped those bombs.  I'm not sure I could live with myself.  Oh well, moot point.
Guess it depends how you/they look at it. Any bomber crew figured they were doing their part to end the war and get home in one piece.
If their mission was to bomb a ballbearing plant somewhere that was close by a civilian town..... so be it. A thousand plane raid meant some bombs were going to hit that town.
Had no nukes been dropped, the Japan invasion had been planned out...... and not very pretty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Synesthesia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2010 at 11:56pm
I think one of the folks who flew that plane killed himself, but I can't be sure. It must have been depressing. I feel bad for the innocents on both sides who get brainwashed into war and lose so much. Like their sons so full of promise and health.
War is a stupid idea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeroboam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2010 at 9:42am
Originally posted by PaWolf PaWolf wrote:

Originally posted by jeroboam jeroboam wrote:

No soldier/sailor/marine/airman truly enjoys what they do in war...
I consider that 'proper human nature'.
My Father WILL NOT discuss his *many* different tours (from WWII to IRAQ).
MY Son WILL NOT discuss AfgyLand.
My Daughter WILL NOT discuss the 'Border Drug War'.
MissyDWolf considers MANY subjects 'TABOO'.
I just don't see the need, nor benefit to any living human, to discuss what I experienced.
I firmly believe - and I have to - what happened was 'correct and rightous'; we can 'steer' others.


It is nice to know people who get that.
I don't even share that I was in the service much to people in person because then questions arise.
Though I had a friend in the coast guard and he and I would talk a lot. It was cathartic.
Thing is he sounds similar to your daughter. He did stuff in Florida. Scary stuff. Pirates, bandits, drug runners.
First time I ever heard of human trafficking was from him.

For the most part, as I have mentioned on here once before, my time in the gulf war was a lot of class room time and sitting in a barracks watching the war on CNN but eventually sh*t goes down no matter what they tell you they have planned for you.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ad Endless Nauseum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2010 at 10:09am
Originally posted by Tiz Tiz wrote:

Thought the bombadier caught a break in the clouds or something. The bomb did hit the outter edge of town.
They couldn't very well try to land back home with a live Abomb on board.Shocked



It wasn't so much landing with a live nuke, so much as the fact that those bombs were unbelievably heavy, and would have caused the aircraft to exceed it's safe landing weight. Same reason that causes large commercial and military aircraft now to be forced to circle around burning off and jettisoning excess fuel, even in emergencies (so long as they can still stay in the air, that is) to bring the beast down to a safe landing weight. Otherwise, landing gear can fail, the fuselage can crack and fail, the wings might fold up at the root or at the landing gear mounts, all kinds of bad things, usually followed by an explosion and fire from the remaining fuel.

I'm pretty sure that both aircraft's orders (Enola Gay, and Bockscar) were that if it proved impossible to drop on the primary or any of several secondary targets, they were to return to Saipan, defuse the weapons enroute, and dump the bombs as duds in the deep ocean.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2010 at 1:55pm
I've wondered if we could've dropped the bomb on an unpopulated Japanese island, as a warning and as a demonstration of what could happen unless Japan surrendered unconditionally.  Thing is, I guess that could've backfired.  The Japanese were relentless.  Plus, "warnings" seems more a Cold War era idea. 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2010 at 7:49pm
I'm pretty sure that both aircraft's orders (Enola Gay, and Bockscar) were that if it proved impossible to drop on the primary or any of several secondary targets, they were to return to Saipan, defuse the weapons enroute, and dump the bombs as duds in the deep ocean.
..............................
That brings up a question. What if  the USS Indianapolis had been torpedoed & sunk before delivering her cargo of a nuclear bomb and not afterwards.
Wonder if the explosion or fire would've set off the bomb.
 
IMO, I don't think dropping one off the coast of Japan as a scare tactic would've worked.
One, nukes weren't that easy to manufacture back then.
If they still did nothing, now our troops would have to navigate around that radioactive area for the invasion.
Japan did get 6 days notice(warning) before Nagasaki was bombed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2010 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by Tiz Tiz wrote:

 
IMO, I don't think dropping one off the coast of Japan as a scare tactic would've worked.
One, nukes weren't that easy to manufacture back then.
If they still did nothing, now our troops would have to navigate around that radioactive area for the invasion.
Japan did get 6 days notice(warning) before Nagasaki was bombed.
Well, I guess they did, at that.  And even after Nagasaki, surrender still didn't happen immediately. 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeroboam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2010 at 9:30pm
The whole "warning" aspect of WWII was rampant. It was a concurrent arms race as well as an all out war.
Japanese, Germans and Russians all were in this rush to get the bomb. Germans were looking in the wrong direction and they were by this time devoting their trust to an eroding dictator and the the Russians were focusing more on man  power building up levels on border countries.
Japan I guess was closer than many to the bomb and as Thor mentioned, were relentless.
This is an ironic thing my great uncle stan admires about the Japanese.
Aside from the horrors they caused he has more tolerance for his memory of them than he does Germans.
I guess to this day he has a slight prejudice against Germans as he feels they were cowards and thugs. He felt the Japanese had their best interest in their intentions (albeit atrocious at times)
He still didn't hesitate in shooting them out of the air.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2010 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by Tiz Tiz wrote:

That brings up a question. What if  the USS Indianapolis had been torpedoed & sunk before delivering her cargo of a nuclear bomb and not afterwards.
Wonder if the explosion or fire would've set off the bomb.
 
I kinda doubt it.
 
First, the bombs probably weren't "armed" with the detonation devices installed in them while on the ship & second, I think the detonators are designed to be activated by air pressure or altitude or something.
 
They drop them out of the plane, the bombs fall, then at a certain altitude above the ground, they detonate in the air above the target.
 
Or at least that's what I was told.
 
Great news guys.... With the Air Hawk, flat balls are no longer a problem!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2010 at 11:30pm
Probably so, but there has been instances where a shell landed in an ammo dump(where the ammo isn't fused) and cooked it all off.
But aboard the Indy, the fire had not yet gotten that hot before it went under.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2010 at 11:50pm
Originally posted by jeroboam jeroboam wrote:

The whole "warning" aspect of WWII was rampant. It was a concurrent arms race as well as an all out war.
Japanese, Germans and Russians all were in this rush to get the bomb. Germans were looking in the wrong direction and they were by this time devoting their trust to an eroding dictator and the the Russians were focusing more on man  power building up levels on border countries.
Japan I guess was closer than many to the bomb and as Thor mentioned, were relentless.
This is an ironic thing my great uncle stan admires about the Japanese.
Aside from the horrors they caused he has more tolerance for his memory of them than he does Germans.
I guess to this day he has a slight prejudice against Germans as he feels they were cowards and thugs. He felt the Japanese had their best interest in their intentions (albeit atrocious at times)
He still didn't hesitate in shooting them out of the air.
 
I never knew that Jero........ the Japanese were closer to developing the bomb. I didn't think they were even in the race. Seems that if they knew that much about it, they would have known about it's enormous power and have given up after Hiroshima.
But their country had never been conquered before and they were given an unconditional surrender.
For the Japanese, surrender was the lowest a man could get. That's what they thought about the Brits in Singapore & the US in the Philipines when they surrendered.
 
The Germans as cowards. The SS somewhat more than the Regular German army. The SS knew, if captured by the Russians they wouldn't live long. The "higher-ups" in office knew this too and tried to flee to the Americans.
What did your great uncle do, Jero? If I may ask.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2010 at 12:06am
Originally posted by Tiz Tiz wrote:

Probably so, but there has been instances where a shell landed in an ammo dump(where the ammo isn't fused) and cooked it all off.
But aboard the Indy, the fire had not yet gotten that hot before it went under.
 
Well, the thing about an atom bomb, or any nuclear explosive, is that in order to detonate & create an explosion, the neutron of an atom of a certain type has to be fired at extremely high velocity into the plutonium mass in order to create the chain reaction of splitting plutonium atoms, aka nuclear fission.
 
Kind of like the break shot in a billiard game, but in this case, the cue ball splits one of the target balls into pieces that in turn, split the other balls into pieces & on & on. The energy released from the splitting of the balls (or plutonium atoms) is the explosion.
 
Even if the plutonium in those bombs was rocked with explosions all around it, it likely wouldn't detonate because that very precise sequence of events has to occur first.
 
 
Great news guys.... With the Air Hawk, flat balls are no longer a problem!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeroboam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2010 at 6:06am
Originally posted by Tiz Tiz wrote:

Originally posted by jeroboam jeroboam wrote:

The whole "warning" aspect of WWII was rampant. It was a concurrent arms race as well as an all out war.
Japanese, Germans and Russians all were in this rush to get the bomb. Germans were looking in the wrong direction and they were by this time devoting their trust to an eroding dictator and the the Russians were focusing more on man  power building up levels on border countries.
Japan I guess was closer than many to the bomb and as Thor mentioned, were relentless.
This is an ironic thing my great uncle stan admires about the Japanese.
Aside from the horrors they caused he has more tolerance for his memory of them than he does Germans.
I guess to this day he has a slight prejudice against Germans as he feels they were cowards and thugs. He felt the Japanese had their best interest in their intentions (albeit atrocious at times)
He still didn't hesitate in shooting them out of the air.
 
I never knew that Jero........ the Japanese were closer to developing the bomb. I didn't think they were even in the race. Seems that if they knew that much about it, they would have known about it's enormous power and have given up after Hiroshima.
But their country had never been conquered before and they were given an unconditional surrender.
For the Japanese, surrender was the lowest a man could get. That's what they thought about the Brits in Singapore & the US in the Philipines when they surrendered.
 
The Germans as cowards. The SS somewhat more than the Regular German army. The SS knew, if captured by the Russians they wouldn't live long. The "higher-ups" in office knew this too and tried to flee to the Americans.
What did your great uncle do, Jero? If I may ask.




Well, don't hold my data as gospel. There is chance I am in error. I am just gleaning from mindless hours of History channel junk (pre reality show History Channel) and casual readings and some mil history I had to sit in on.

I just remember hearing that EVERYBODY wanted in on this new bomb idea.
The Japanese I guess even was wanting to make "ghost bombs" where they wanted to harness spirits to haunt the enemy areas.

yeah.




My great uncle, Stan Newman was on the USS Fletcher, basically "fletcher class" is named for that ship. It was a Destroyer.
He was known as a tin can sailor mainly because they had to go so fast the hulls of the ships were very thin, like an 1/8 inch thick single wall.
He said at night one could feel the wall push in against them from the water on the other side as they bunked.

He was a gunner, in fact his "boot camp" was he walked in, joined and they put him on a bus down to California.
They then asked him what he did for a living and he said he was a mill wright.
They then took him to a 20 mm gun and said, "take this apart and put it back before lunch"
He did and they said that was his gun.


He did Guadal canal and some stuff off the Philippines and Guam and Borneo.

He is approaching 90 and he still makes it to the Fletcher and Tin Can sailor reunions every year. He and my aunt are very active and healthy. It is fun to be around him.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2010 at 7:29pm
Thats pretty cool Jero.
My grandparents were too old for service duty. They lived in Buckroe beach, about 10-15 minutes drive from Norfolk ship building. Their place was maybe a few hundred yards(1/4 mile maybe) off the Chesapeake Bay. Grandma got to do U-Boat "watching" duties.Cool
Also made ends meet by renting out their spare bedroom to sailers/workers.
 
Found this awhile back when going through their things.
It never saw service in WWII, but it must have been pretty cool to see one up close & personal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Synesthesia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 2010 at 9:28pm
I have my grandfather's dogtag.
One of my aunts took the other one. Which made me quite cross, as I found them first.
Along with some old scary looking antibiotics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeroboam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2010 at 6:10am
I have some chocolate and sugar ration stamps and my grandpa's civilian/military pass in to a "sawmill" that he worked at for a while up in Seattle for a few months. He was building stuff for the war effort of course in an old coverted saw mill.
I guess those were all over the northwest
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Doctor Blase Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2011 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by FaithSF FaithSF wrote:

Yeah, you're right.  Although Planned Parenthood didn't have the money to run an ad during the Superbowl.

This is the second time I can think of that CBS (not sure if it was the Superbowl) refused ads of a more liberal bent.


 
 
Shh. Don't ruin the comforting myth of "the liberal media." We all "know" how liberal most billionare media owners and their multinational corporations are. LOL
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