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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Synesthesia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 5:46pm
I don't deny that Japan was pretty brutal during the war, but that doesn't mean there weren't innocent people who had nothing to do with such atrocities that were hurt and killed. I always feel bad for the people on every side who are just living their lives trying to survive who get hurt by stupid foolish wars which shouldn't exist in the first place.
Man, war is stupid on every single level.
Is this love big enough to watch over me?
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Like the day I learned to swim?-Kate Bush The Fog
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeroboam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 6:09pm
That stuff is real about the Japanese. Archival videotape confirms it. They show a lot in mil history classes on bases.
sh*tty things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 6:13pm

That's why people should fight such horrible regimes being put into place in the first place.  Bad things can happen.  Yesterday was the 65th anniversary of the bombing of Dresden.  Had Hitler not garnered such widespread support, Dresden would never have been seen as more than a spot on a map.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Just saying that that's your interpretation of what Christianity says about war.  Here's the Catholic Church's, based on the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas: 
 
(1) Just cause — The war must confront an unquestioned danger. "The damage inflicted by the aggressor or the nation or community of nations must b lasting, grave and certain, assets the Catechism (#2309).

(2) Proper authority — The legitimate authority must declare the war and must be acting on behalf of the people.

(3) Right Intention — The reasons for declaring the war must actually be the objectives, not a masking of ulterior motives.

(4) Last resort — All reasonable peaceful alternatives must have been exhausted or have been deemed impractical or ineffective. The contentious parties must strive to resolve their differences peacefully before engaging in war, e.g. through negotiation, mediation, or even embargoes. Here too we see the importance of an international medial body, such as the United Nations.

(5) Proportionality —The good that is achieved by waging war must not be outweighed by the harm. What good is it to wage war if it leaves the country in total devastation with no one really being the winner? Modern means of warfare give great weight to this criterion.

(6) Probability of success — The achievement of the war's purpose must have a reasonable chance of success.

(1) Discrimination — Armed forces ought to fight armed forces, and should strive not to harm non-combatants purposefully. Moreover, armed forces should not wantonly destroy the enemy's countryside, cities, or economy simply for the sake of punishment, retaliation or vengeance.

(2) Due proportion — Combatants must use only those means necessary to achieve their objectives. For example, no one needs to use nuclear missiles to settle a territorial fishing problem. Due proportion also involves mercy — towards civilians in general, towards combatants when the resistance stops (as in the case of surrender and prisoners of war), and towards all parties when the war is finished.

 
 
Bush's invasion of Iraq meets none of the first 6 criteria.
 
Ergo, it was an unjust war.
 
Ergo, the innocent people killed in it were murdered.
 
Ergo, the so-called "Christians" who support the war in Iraq support murder.
 
Hence, the bastardized interpretation of "Thou shalt not kill" that you described, allows them to support violence, love guns & still call themselves righteous & holy.
 
Great news guys.... With the Air Hawk, flat balls are no longer a problem!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 10:49pm
...he says, as Obama increases troops in Afghanistan.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 11:00pm
And what does Afghanistan have to do with Iraq?
 
Had Bush concentrated on Afghanistan (where Al Quaeda & the Taliban actually were....) I wouldn't be bringing him up right now.
 
At least Afghanistan meets ALL the criteria you listed in your post.
 
The Iraq invasion met none.
 
Great news guys.... With the Air Hawk, flat balls are no longer a problem!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 11:07pm
Ok, yeah.  Let's debate these wars.  We haven't done that enough.  LOL
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 11:17pm
Well, it fits in the direction the discussion took.
 
Just vs. unjust wars & what constitutes murder, etc.
 
Just sayin..... Wink
Great news guys.... With the Air Hawk, flat balls are no longer a problem!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2010 at 3:58pm
Yeah, I see how the discussion led here, but at this point, it'd only veer off in a direction we've gone a million times before. 
 
At one point, I thought it'd be more interesting if the Hiroshima or Dresden sidebar took off.  Well, maybe another time for that one. 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RichardCranium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2010 at 4:21pm
Why? Because it's easier for you to justify killing innocent people in those cases than in Iraq?
 
At least I'm not a hypocrit, in that I am pro death all around. How hard it must be to walk that fine line between pro-life/anti-choice/pro-death-if-God-sanctions-it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaWolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2010 at 5:42pm

(from 'Today's News')

 
RELIGION
Church Promotes Mixed Martial Arts to Lure Young Men
Drawing large congregations for “Sunday Morning Death Match.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2010 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Yeah, I see how the discussion led here, but at this point, it'd only veer off in a direction we've gone a million times before. 
 
At one point, I thought it'd be more interesting if the Hiroshima or Dresden sidebar took off.  Well, maybe another time for that one. 
 
 
There was more to Hiroshima than saving lives invading Japan. Germany was working on The Bomb but never came close. Stalin knew about it but knew even less about them.
We, the U.S. wanted to show Stalin(our allie at the time) that we had one & wanted to show it.
But this should be in another forum, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2010 at 10:36pm
Yeah, that's true, too.  But Germany had already surrendered, and the Japanese were not surrendering, fighting on even at the expense of its own people (cutting its own nose off to spite its face, I guess).  I think, by that point, America just wanted it over already.  But, you're right...the dropping of the bomb is not only seen as the end of WWII, but the beginning of the Cold War, as well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 2:24am
Even before the bomb was dropped. His B29s couldn't hit the broad side of a city at their designed high altitude, so he changed strategy and went low level with napalm & incendiary bombs on Tokyo. No military targets.
Murder, war crimes?
..................................... 
GENERAL CURTIS LE MAY. In air campaigns against Japan in 1944 and 1945, General Curtis LeMay of the U.S. Army Air Corps also defied the established wartime policy of the United States. That policy called for precision daylight bombing of military targets. Instead, LeMay retrofitted his planes with napalm cannisters (jellied gasoline), and dropped them at night over the northern suburbs of Tokyo, which were then the most densely populated areas in the world. Of course there were no men of fighting age present; there were only women, children, and the elderly packed in their wooden homes. On one evening, March 9, 1945, LeMay’s pilots were particuarly lucky: there was a brisk wind that carried the flaming napalm across wide distances. The heat that was generated was so great that the few people who could get out of their homes in time and jump into the nearest river or lake were boiled to death. General LeMay had successfully presided over the murder of 100,000 innocent people. He also had a quip to give to posterity: “There are no innocent civilians, so it doesn't bother me so much to be killing innocent bystanders."

When I participated on a war crimes panel at West Point some years ago, I brought up LeMay’s name as an arch war criminal. Despite my saying this in a room packed with cadets and high brass, no forcible action was taken against me. Perhaps the reason for the restraint was that the West Pointers were prepared for remarks such as mine. All eyes turned to one of the observers in the first row, an Army officer who was also a professor at West point. After standing up and establishing his credentials as a major student of aerial warfare, he sharply disputed my assertion that LeMay dropped bombs on non-military targets. He said that the women in the targeted area were active participants in furthering the Japanese war effort: they were darning socks and mending army uniforms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 2:43am
That may all be true, and we doubtlessly did some ugly things.  But whoever wrote the above has to remember that WWII wasn't a war we asked for or wanted to participate in.  The Japanese should've realized (and ultimately, did) that, sometimes, you need to be careful what you ask for.  Their own innocent people ended up paying the price, but so did ours.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 2:34am
Originally posted by PaWolf PaWolf wrote:

(from 'Today's News')

 
RELIGION
Church Promotes Mixed Martial Arts to Lure Young Men
Drawing large congregations for “Sunday Morning Death Match.”
 
I took martial arts lessons at a Baptist Church for about a year when I was in high school.
 
It was part of an organization called "Judo & Karate for Christ".
 
A group of us went to a martial arts summer camp in Brownsville Ky. that was sponsored by said organization.
 
Great fun. Stayed in a big two story dorm type building with a swimming pool & a large open meadow where we worked out in the mornings & a covered outdoor chapel where we had church services at night.
 
Went to visit Mammoth Cave one day. 
 
Great news guys.... With the Air Hawk, flat balls are no longer a problem!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaWolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 2:55am
Originally posted by Jimbo Jimbo wrote:

Originally posted by PaWolf PaWolf wrote:

(from 'Today's News')

 
RELIGION
Church Promotes Mixed Martial Arts to Lure Young Men
Drawing large congregations for “Sunday Morning Death Match.”
 
I took martial arts lessons at a Baptist Church for about a year when I was in high school.
 
It was part of an organization called "Judo & Karate for Christ".
 
A group of us went to a martial arts summer camp in Brownsville Ky. that was sponsored by said organization.
 
Great fun. Stayed in a big two story dorm type building with a swimming pool & a large open meadow where we worked out in the mornings & a covered outdoor chapel where we had church services at night.
 
Went to visit Mammoth Cave one day. 
 
!!! HOLY KARATE!
Ol'Mule, THAT may be the funniest fuc'in thing I have read in AGES!! *I* think Nathan NEEDS to send you $50 and a six-pak!!! If HE doesn't, *I* will (PM me)...I'm STILL in tears! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moochamoocha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 10:05pm
Ohhh...all of this is hurting my head! Make it stop! It's funny how a topic about a commercial has turned into a war debate. But around here, that's business as usual.

BTW, if Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor, we wouldn't have had to bomb them in the first place. Can you say "asking for it"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeroboam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by Moochamoocha Moochamoocha wrote:

Ohhh...all of this is hurting my head! Make it stop! It's funny how a topic about a commercial has turned into a war debate. But around here, that's business as usual.

BTW, if Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor, we wouldn't have had to bomb them in the first place. Can you say "asking for it"?


There are some who speculate the war was close to ending before we did the bombing of both cities. One of the reasons we chose less populated cities as tokyo was essential to keep intact as disrupting the government of Japan was predicted to unleash chaos and warlord rule all over again.
These again are analysts postulating their too little too late ideas and theories but there is data to support it.
In the end, the a bomb was kind of a weird, "no really we mean it, the war's over"
Like using a sledge hammer to kill an ant, I heard once (I don't really agree with that as Japan was pretty dangerous)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ad nauseous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 10:37pm
Wow this thread has veered off course!
One good thing about TV-you could always turn it off
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2010 at 12:12am
Originally posted by jeroboam jeroboam wrote:

Originally posted by Moochamoocha Moochamoocha wrote:

Ohhh...all of this is hurting my head! Make it stop! It's funny how a topic about a commercial has turned into a war debate. But around here, that's business as usual.

BTW, if Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor, we wouldn't have had to bomb them in the first place. Can you say "asking for it"?


There are some who speculate the war was close to ending before we did the bombing of both cities. One of the reasons we chose less populated cities as tokyo was essential to keep intact as disrupting the government of Japan was predicted to unleash chaos and warlord rule all over again.
These again are analysts postulating their too little too late ideas and theories but there is data to support it.
In the end, the a bomb was kind of a weird, "no really we mean it, the war's over"
Like using a sledge hammer to kill an ant, I heard once (I don't really agree with that as Japan was pretty dangerous)

 
Nagasaki was a secondary target as the original city was cloud covered. Pres. Truman was the one who OK'd dropping the bombs but also chopped Gen. McArthur off at the knees when he wanted to go into China and even use nukes during the Korean War.Clap
As for this topic veering off, neither Nathan or the Mods(that never post here) have said anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2010 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by Tiz Tiz wrote:

 
Nagasaki was a secondary target as the original city was cloud covered.
 
...and then, Nagasaki became cloud-covered.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tiz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2010 at 10:12pm
Thought the bombadier caught a break in the clouds or something. The bomb did hit the outter edge of town.
They couldn't very well try to land back home with a live Abomb on board.Shocked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeroboam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2010 at 6:39am
The crew on the Enola Gay could see people working in their gardens below.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2010 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by jeroboam jeroboam wrote:

The crew on the Enola Gay could see people working in their gardens below.
 
Whether or not the bombings were justifiable, I'd hate to have been the pilots/crew who dropped those bombs.  I'm not sure I could live with myself.  Oh well, moot point.
 
 
Enola Gay
Orchestral Maneuvers in the Dark
 
Enola Gay, you should have stayed at home yesterday
Aha words can't describe the feeling and the way you lied

These games you play, they're gonna end in more than tears someday
Aha Enola Gay, it shouldn't ever have to end this way

It's 8:15, and that's the time that it's always been
We got your message on the radio, conditions normal and you're coming home

Enola Gay, is mother proud of little boy today
Aha this kiss you give, it's never ever gonna fade away

Enola Gay, it shouldn't ever have to end this way
Aha Enola Gay, it shouldn't fade in our dreams away

It's 8:15, and that's the time that it's always been
We got your message on the radio, conditions normal and you're coming home

Enola Gay, is mother proud of little boy today
Aha this kiss you give, it's never ever gonna fade away
 
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